Rams Fans United - Los Angeles Rams Fan Discussion Forum

/zn/ wrote:We don't really know enough to say either way, but here is my issue with the "game 1 injury" argument. Something did happen in game 1, and we know that because both Gurley and McVay said it did. But if he actually got dinged in game 1, and it was a normal football injury, that means both that the Rams did not report an injury, and that he played for several games on an injured or at least dinged surgical knee. Not sure I like that idea. Maybe he got dinged twice, once in game 1, which turned out to be minor, then later, which was bad enough for him to sit. Or, as has Gaines says, he has an underlying arthritic condition. A condition like that can flare up and calm down, and that's regardless of any other factor. So it could have flared up for whatever reason in game 1 and then later in December. Of all the theories out there, that's my vote. Something (and it could have been something that happened both in game 1 then later) tweaked an arthritic knee and set off some pain and swelling.

I'm guessing that it was two different things and that the game 1 thing wasn't an actual "injury". He didn't miss any time due to it even if it left him less than 100%. I don't really know for sure what the NFL rules are on what constitutes something that has to be reported but it isn't anything and everything.

Now, what popped up later in the year seemed more serious and IMO, something Gurley did his best to fight through but ultimately, kept him from being himself. He seemed less than 100% focused at times against NO and NE and my bet is that it was because he was thinking about the knee.

aeneas1 wrote:i don't think the media ever got "hung up on the word arthritis" - instead they ran with it as a devastating headline, and added to the claim with stories that ranged from it explained gurley's postseason performance to gurley's career could be at an end.

Yeah, you're more accurate there. Listening to some of the podcasts out there, the fantasy freaks are off the wall. I hear wacko stuff like "The Rams trainer confirms what we suspected all along, Gurley has acute arthritis in his knee, he's done and its time to draft Henderson in your fantasy league."

aeneas1 wrote:and if iirc, you also saw a lesser gurley in the cowboys game too, right?

Yup. He did not look the same to me. But hey, what do I know, I'm just an old guy with failing eyesight.

aeneas1 wrote:in his time with the rams kupp has missed regular or preseason games due to a groin injury, a sprained mcl, and an acl, he also suffered a concussion that forced him to leave a game... bridgewater? healthy throughout his college career, one of the worst nfl knee injuries to ever happen, in practice no less... von miller? tore his acl in 2013 and missed most of the season, in the five seasons since his return he's made the pro bowl every year, first-team all-pro twice, and was named super bowl mvp... gurley? tore his acl in his final year in college, won oroy and made the pro bowl his rookie season, and has since been named first-team all-pro twice, made two more pro bowls, and won offensive player of the year honors... what's in store for gurley in 2019 and going forward? we'll see.

Yup. We'll see.

aeneas1 wrote:ok, i clearly misunderstood - so you think it's more than possible that gurley has been working his ass off at the rams facility and with gaines, is indeed in great shape as many have said, and just because there aren't any photos or film of it it doesn't mean he's not?

Definitely. My caveat, where we might get hung up is, i think Gurley probably isn't doing certain things that would be impressive to see by the casual observer so that's why were not seeing stuff.

if so i completely agree. but speaking of film, i thought the vid i posted a few weeks back of gurley chopping the agility brackets and then leaping onto a high stack, landing on it with his left leg and balancing there was pretty impressive, as was his weight lifting while standing only on his left leg, but as far as i can tell the vid didn't get much play?

Is that the one Chao commented on or something else? If it's something else, i might have missed it.

but you don't also hear them saying that he's "fine" and in great shape? again, and again? what do you think about that? do you think they're just not being truthful? or do you think they really don't know?

I do hear them reporting it but it certainly isn't the headline like the other stuff is.

But you have to admit the Gurley situation is a little opaque. They say he's fine and then he gets 10 touches in the SB. (I'm fine with the situational explanation but it's still there.) They say he's good now but doesn't participate in OTAs. They say keeping Gurley out of OTAs was the plan all along but there was no head's up. Why turn it to a mystery/breaking news type deal? They say he's working out and in great shape but little or no video. Doesn't mean it's not true but it's murky. The press is gonna pick up on that and i don't think they're wrong to.

Look at Kupp, we have tons of video on his rehab, there's even an episode of Behind the Grind dedicated to it. They say he's coming along great. You can see it for yourself. Gurley is different. Which, BTW, it would be awesome if Gurley and his current work outs, how he's getting ready for 2019 was the subject of the next BTG. Maybe it will be, does not seem out of the realm of possibility to me.

But more likely, i think, we'll to wait and see what his participation level is at training camp. The way things have been going, my guess is it will be less than in years past and the negative speculation will continue until week 1 when we'll all finally see what's what...

aeneas1 wrote:so gurley is vinny's manning, eh?

-----------------------------------

Peyton Manning likely will never play football again, sources say
Los Angeles Times January 31, 2012 | 9:09 am
https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports ... s-say.html

Although the vertebrae in Manning's neck have healed as expected, which allowed him to start throwing again back in December, the same can't be said for the nerves in his arm, according to the sources. They say the velocity on his passes has not improved and possibly never will.

All of which, the sources say, indicates the four-time MVP will probably never play again.

Vinny's article didn't go that far and a lot of it is surprisingly on the money:

He talks about managing Gurley's workload, bringing in another back, the Dr. mentions weight loss, Gurley running more routes. Even his most dire prediction has Gurley with 2 more years as an elite top 5 back.

The tone is ominous but the content is fairly reasonable.

And, of course, we still don't know how this is gonna play out...

Elvis wrote:Vinny's article didn't go that far and a lot of it is surprisingly on the money:

He talks about managing Gurley's workload, bringing in another back, the Dr. mentions weight loss. Even his most dire prediction has Gurley with 2 more years as an elite top 5 back.

The tone is ominous but the content is fairly reasonable.

And, of course, we still don't know how this is gonna play out...

yeah, we're definitely looking through different lenses on this thing, ha ha, but that doesn't mean we can't still be friends!

my guess is vinny talked about the rams managing gurley's workload because, well, mcvay and snead had just publicly talked about managing his workload, so i don't consider his take on that to be on the money.

bringing in another back? i'm sure you would agree that there's nothing unusual about a team drafting a rb in the 3rd round when it has an entrenched starter in place (healthy or otherwise), heck the rams spent a first rounder on a rb after faulk just won league opoy, but vinny and the rest of the pack tried to make it a story, tried to make it fit the bleak narrative. again, i don't find anything on the money about that either.

re the arthritis stuff, vinny did what everyone else did:

a) threw out a scary headline, and lead with an equally scary "There is finally some clarity on the condition of Todd Gurley’s left knee, and the news over the weekend painted a gloomy picture for the Rams’ star running back." - don't know about you, but that "clarity" stuff made me laugh out loud.

and

b) based on howe's claim, lined up some docs to weigh in on the grim realities of an arthritic knee... honestly, that's not money to me.

of course through it all, while vinny was clickity-clacking away, the rams, mcvay, snead, gurley continued to say what they've always said, that gurley was fine through the postseason, fine now, and that he experienced wear and tear due to the very long season which they would manage going forward.

hey, btw, you never responded to my earlier question:

but don't you also hear them (snead, mcvay, gurley, gaines, dickerson, gordon, etc., etc)
saying that he's "fine" and in great shape? again, and again? what do you think about that? do you think they're just not being truthful? or do you think they really don't know?

what say you? are they all full of burritos when they continue to say he's fine, in great shape?

aeneas1 wrote:yeah, we're definitely looking through different lenses on this thing, ha ha, but that doesn't mean we can't still be friends!

Of course!

hey, btw, you never responded to my earlier question:

but don't you also hear them (snead, mcvay, gurley, gaines, dickerson, gordon, etc., etc)
saying that he's "fine" and in great shape? again, and again? what do you think about that? do you think they're just not being truthful? or do you think they really don't know?

what say you? are they all full of burritos when they continue to say he's fine, in great shape?

I thought i did but like i said, fine is pretty broad term.

The question is how well Gurley's left knee can handle what's coming. They're clearly trying to maximize the odds with what their doing.

That's different than "he's fine, in great shape, working hard, etc..." I'm sure that's all true but it doesn't tell us much about what's gonna happen with that knee in 2019. And that's the real question...

Elvis wrote:I thought i did but like i said, fine is pretty broad term.

when i hear fine, doing good, in great shape from those who have been saying it, it doesn't strike me as particularly broad given the context of the questions being asked.

Elvis wrote:The question is how well Gurley's left knee can handle what's coming. They're clearly trying to maximize the odds with what their doing.

sounds like 2015 doesn't it? fish and company also tried to maximize the odds by sitting gurley during the preseason, by not starting him until game 3 of the regular season, seemed to work out ok... and gurley looks back at that and says what he's dealing with now is small by comparison.

Elvis wrote:..."he's fine, in great shape, working hard, etc..." I'm sure that's all true but it doesn't tell us much about what's gonna happen with that knee in 2019. And that's the real question...

optimistic reports from the rams and those closest to gurley, doc chao's photo analysis, jeff howe's anthrax claim, i mean arthritis claim, nor vinny's weekly take is going tell us much about what's gonna happen with gurley's knee in 2019, not as far as i can tell. funny thing tho, i think there would be much more media optimism regarding gurley headed into 2019 had he simply torn his acl against the eagles and missed the rest of the year.

"i don't think you appreciate the gut reaction people have to these things, elvis, it's all psychological. you yell 'acl,' everybody says 'huh? what?' you yell 'arthritis,' we've got a panic on our hands on the fourth of july."

aeneas1 wrote:sounds like 2015 doesn't it? fish and company also tried to maximize the odds by sitting gurley during the preseason, by not starting him until game 3 of the regular season, seemed to work out ok... and gurley looks back at that and says what he's dealing with now is small by comparison.

Not to me. After the medicals on Gurley’s knee before the draft, no one was gonna draft him in the first round if they thought the knee was a significant problem.

aeneas1 wrote:"i don't think you appreciate the gut reaction people have to these things, elvis, it's all psychological. you yell 'acl,' everybody says 'huh? what?' you yell 'arthritis,' we've got a panic on our hands on the fourth of july."

Nice movie reference. I love Beach Blanket Bingo. <kidding>

Is there justification for more negativity over arthritis than an ACL surgery? Probably due to the history. Arthritis demonstrably shortens careers. One ACL surgery not necessarily as quickly.

Let me see if I can take this in a slightly different direction...

If Todd Gurley had not been given an extension last offseason, 2019 would have been the final (option) year of his rookie deal.

Which of the following statements do you think is true (I'm listing the choices here rather than posting a poll because I really think there are enough Gurley threads):

1. The Rams are better off having signed him in 2018 because the price is only going to go up.
2. The Rams made the right call signing him to the extension when they made the decision. Any reevaluation at this time is just hindsight thinking.
3. The Rams should have waited until 2020 to determine whether Gurley was worth extending, even though he would have more leverage (due to other suitors) at the expiration of his rookie contract.
4. The Rams should have waited and signed him this year, as they probably could have negotiated a better deal now than they did last year.
5. Running backs shouldn't be given mega-deals. This is just more proof of that.

It should come as no surprise that I'd vote for 1 and 2.

AvengerRam wrote:Let me see if I can take this in a slightly different direction...

If Todd Gurley had not been given an extension last offseason, 2019 would have been the final (option) year of his rookie deal.

Which of the following statements do you think is true (I'm listing the choices here rather than posting a poll because I really think there are enough Gurley threads):

1. The Rams are better off having signed him in 2018 because the price is only going to go up.
2. The Rams made the right call signing him to the extension when they made the decision. Any reevaluation at this time is just hindsight thinking.
3. The Rams should have waited until 2020 to determine whether Gurley was worth extending, even though he would have more leverage (due to other suitors) at the expiration of his rookie contract.
4. The Rams should have waited and signed him this year, as they probably could have negotiated a better deal now than they did last year.
5. Running backs shouldn't be given mega-deals. This is just more proof of that.

It should come as no surprise that I'd vote for 1 and 2.

Those aren't enough choices.

I can think of at least 2 more.

6. At the time of the signing it was a decent bet that extending Gurley would be a good risk/reward move.
7. At this point, no one would sign Gurley to a bigger deal than the Rams gave him.

Put me down for those 2.

It's pretty common that people like to frame questions to fit their narrative. Just about everyone has a natural bias. I highly recommend Daniel Kahneman's great book, Thinking fast and slow. It may change the way you think.