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 by Dick84
1 month ago
 Total posts:   5282  
 Joined:  Oct 29 2015
Italy   LA Coliseum
Hall of Fame

PARAM wrote:I'm not an expert on OL play. But what did Evans do or not do in 7 starts to make you think he can't start in the NFL? Edwards in 10 starts? Though I remember his name was called quite often by the refs. Noteboom seemed to impress folks in 2018 in limited duty and he only had 6 starts on which to judge in 2019. Allen a little more, 9. Corbett 7. What did they do or not do?

Havenstein is key IMHO, as the only truly experienced vet on the team. So are either Blythe or Whitworth if they can sign them to a reasonable deal. But I certainly hope they don't over invest in Whitworth as he's got to be on the way out in the next year or two. They could certainly draft an OL in the 2nd...or the 3rd....or the 4th but what advantage would he offer over those other guys? I know a lot has changed in 20 years but Orlando Pace, #1 pick only started 9 games as a rookie. How complicated is McVay's offense for rookie lineman? What are the odds we draft somebody in any of those rounds and he excels as a rookie?

So it would appear, the mystery is what have the coaches seen both on the field and on tape? What is their opinion of the youngsters? We shall see soon enough and I'm fine with whatever direction they choose to take, so long as it makes the OL a legit strength. And to complicate things, what's up with Gurley? The Rams had 8 runs of 20 or more yards in 2019. Gurley had 5. Henderson, Woods and Cooks all had 1 each. How much of that can be put on the O line? Gurley had 5 on 223 carries. Those other three had 3 on 62 attempts. That equates to 1 every 44 carries for #30. Does he still have the burst? I hope so. I hope its all on the O line but I fear it's not.


I don't think Evans will start *next year*, I'm not saying he never will be. I thought Edwards played better than Evans. PFF seemed to agree. I'm no expert, just seemed better to me.
Noteboom, I think, was showing more before he got hurt. Now, I also liked Corbett and thought he showed some flashes.
I got no great insight, those were just my feels.

 by PARAM
1 month ago
 Total posts:   4598  
 Joined:  Jul 15 2015
Barbados   Just far enough North of Philadelphia
Superstar

Dick84 wrote:I don't think Evans will start *next year*, I'm not saying he never will be. I thought Edwards played better than Evans. PFF seemed to agree. I'm no expert, just seemed better to me.
Noteboom, I think, was showing more before he got hurt. Now, I also liked Corbett and thought he showed some flashes.
I got no great insight, those were just my feels.


Thanks for the honest reply. Like I said, I'm no OL expert and like you, I have no great insight either. I only go by what the commentators say and show on replay.....or what I see during the game, like somebody whiffs on a block, gets blown up or blows somebody off the ball. IIRC, the youngsters were doing better towards the end of the year, particularly Evans and Edwards and that would figure after starting the last 7 games together as a unit. Ypc can tell something but as "the final answer", far from it. For 2019, that final 3.7 ypc average makes a great table pounder but if Gurley had just 2 more runs over 20 yards (say 25 each) over the course of the season, it would increase the ypc average by as much as 0.10 and three or four even more (0.2) !! Still not a glowing average....and certainly not a lot to be sure, but just two of those 20 yard plus runs ( of which he only had 5 all year ) would have had that number looking better. You get my point. Hell he had 11 runs of 20 or more behind GRob, Saffold, Barnes, Wichman and Havenstein in 2015....and we all know what we thought of that O line!!....In what was not a legit NFL offense, run by a marginal NFL quarterback!!! ;) I think the youngsters get way too much of the blame. We had 4 different O line combinations over the first 10 games of the season. Remove the Dallas game (in which not a single player in a Rams uniform looked like he was ready to play) from the last 5 games of the season and that ypc average was 3.9 with those inexperienced youngsters blocking. Like I said, nothing to get excited about and numbers, though interesting, don't tell the whole story. But they "looked" better at the end of the season.....and yes, two of those games were against those lowly Arizona Cardinals, who held the vaunted 49ers run game to 2.7 ypc (135 on 50 carries) in a 3 point loss and a 10 point loss that SF had to score 13 points in the last 0:37 to win! :o

 by /zn/
1 month ago
 Total posts:   4914  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Superstar

PARAM wrote:T Hell he had 11 runs of 20 or more behind GRob, Saffold, Barnes, Wichman and Havenstein in 2015....and we all know what we thought of that O line!!.


Jackson too could produce behind OLs that were far worse than 2016 or the first half of 2019 (like 2007 or 2009, when there were OL talent problems plus long lists of OL injuries).

Looking at run yardage past the LOS tells you how much the back is capable of doing on his own in spite of the OL. Football Outsiders ranks that. They have 3 stats I look at to get a bit of insight into the running game. First is percentage of runs stuffed, 2nd is 2nd level yards (5-10 yards past the LOS), & 3rd is open field yards (more than 10 yards past the LOS).

To be more precise--2nd level yards and open field yards tell you (roughly) how much the major back (with the most carries) is producing on his own past the LOS. It's basically a stat for big plays rushing.

It's tricky doing this because the numbers reflect all runners, including both RBs and WRs, so it does not just single out one back like Jackson or Gurley. But I take it that the numbers will be heavily tilted by the back who gets the most carries. So you get an approximate idea.

In terms of what this tells you (roughly), you look for years where either the 2nd level yards or the open field yards are ranked 10th or better, or on the red flag side, years where each is below 20.

Here's how the Rams ranked in all of those going back to 2006. I am only going to do the years where they had either Jackson or Gurley (excludes 2013-2014).

Red=a year where the major RB cannot produce that much on his own (past the LOS). Blue= a year where the back contributes heavily on his own (past the LOS, either in 2nd level yards or open field yards or both).

2006: runs stuffed 19th, 2nd level yards 10th, open field yards 13th
2007: runs stuffed 27th, 2nd level yards 30th, open field yards 9th
2008: runs stuffed 21st, 2nd level yards 19th, open field yards 23rd
2009: runs stuffed 28th, 2nd level yards 4th, open field yards 12th
2010: runs stuffed 14th, 2nd level yards 27th, open field yards 25th
2011: runs stuffed 20th, 2nd level yards 10th, open field yards 22nd
2012: runs stuffed 21st, 2nd level yards 11th, open field yards 16th

2015: runs stuffed 28th, 2nd level yards 24th, open field yards 3rd
2016: runs stuffed 28th, 2nd level yards 31st, open field yards 30th
2017: runs stuffed 23rd, 2nd level yards 1st, open field yards 11th
2018: runs stuffed 2nd, 2nd level yards 1st, open field yards 16th
2019: runs stuffed 26th, 2nd level yards 14th, open field yards 29th

Some key red flag years:

One is 2010. As it happens SJ played hurt pretty much all year (groin) and he also has his lowest YPC of his career with the Rams that year (3.8). Surprisingly the OL was okay that year...not high-ranked in talent but it was pretty coherent and very low in injuries so it was the same line all season pretty much.

Another is 2016. There are all sorts of signs TG was playing banged up that year in one way or another. He didn't look the same, and McGinnis flat said he was not healthy that year. TG's YPC that year was 3.2. Every other year except 2019 was 4.7 or higher. OL had issues that year too.

And--another is 2019. They do okay on 2nd level yards but not top 10. They are near the bottom in open field yards. I take that to mean that TG was not his 2017-2018 self. I assume that's knee issues. TG's YPC in 2019 was 3.8. OL as we know also had issues.

 by CanuckRightWinger
1 month ago
 Total posts:   1262  
 Joined:  Jan 13 2016
Canada   VANCOUVER, BC
Pro Bowl

In the Rams season finale, with the maximum time for the Ram Yutes OL to gel BTW,
versus a 5-win and very soft Cardinal Team that had been virtually eliminated from any 2019 Playoff consideration for months....
who had their Golf Clubs all packed-up for the off season for a long time,

here's how that Yutes OL performed rushing against the Arizona Cardinals, at home, in LA:

33 carries for 113 yards rushing for a 3.4 yds/carry average :cry2:

If you take out Woods 9 yard jet sweep and (EDIT) Nick
Scott's 6 yard fake-punt run:
31 carries for 98 yards rushing for a 3.16 yds/carry average :oops2:

I called the Arizona D "soft" above. Per ESPN stats, HERE'S WHY:
CATEGORY......CARD D STAT.....NFL RANK
Total Yds/Game.....402.0............32nd (dead last)
Total 1st Downs...375 allowed...32nd (dead last)
3rd Downs Conv%...46.7%........30th
Rush Yds/Game......120.1..........24th
Yds/Carry Allowed....4.4...........21st TIE

With the Wade's D spotting the Rams Offense a 5 to 0 Turnover advantage, Five to Zero!....we nevertheless were tied 17-17 with the hapless Cards in the 4th Quarter, BECAUSE OUR OL COULDN'T MAKE FOOKING FIRST DOWNS ON A SHYTE D AND KEPT GIVING THE CARDS O THE BALL BACK!!! :x :arrow2: :evil2: (4 Hekker Punts, plus the FakePunt Turnover on Downs!)

Ram 2019 OL performance optimists want to "throw out" that must-win Dallas game where Kromer's charges chalked up a 1.7 yards per Ram carry average.....yeah, let's not count that one, because that non-Playoff Cowboys team fielded a D that wasn't 32nd in everything! :lol2: Here's another Rams 2019 OL rushing stat-stinker.....BALTIMORE AT HOME...9 carries for 22 yards and a 2.4 yards/carry average. OUCH!

With a 5-0 Turnover advantage, versus an Arizona team whose 2019 D stats absolutely stunk :idea2: , the Ram Yutes hovered just over 3 yds/carry rushing....
and against teams that could field a D with some mustard? Much, much worse! :idea2: :arrow2: :oops2:

Those are the 2019 facts.....facts that have me yearning for new 2020 OL Ram bodies, either FAs or Draftees (I'm not fussy).....because the Rams 2019 OL tale-of-the-tape does not look overly promising to my eyes! :idea2:

As always, JMO.

 by PARAM
1 month ago
 Total posts:   4598  
 Joined:  Jul 15 2015
Barbados   Just far enough North of Philadelphia
Superstar

CanuckRightWinger wrote:here's how that Yutes OL performed rushing against the Arizona Cardinals, at home, in LA:

33 carries for 113 yards rushing for a 3.4 yds/carry average :cry2:


I called the Arizona D "soft" above. Per ESPN stats, HERE'S WHY:
CATEGORY......CARD D STAT.....NFL RANK
Total Yds/Game.....402.0............32nd (dead last)
Total 1st Downs...375 allowed...32nd (dead last)
3rd Downs Conv%...46.7%........30th
Rush Yds/Game......120.1..........24th
Yds/Carry Allowed....4.4...........21st TIE

the hapless Cards

Ram 2019 OL performance optimists want to "throw out" that must-win Dallas game where Kromer's charges chalked up a 1.7 yards per Ram carry average.....yeah, let's not count that one, because that non-Playoff Cowboys team fielded a D that wasn't 32nd in everything! :lol2: Here's another Rams 2019 OL rushing stat-stinker.....BALTIMORE AT HOME...9 carries for 22 yards and a 2.4 yards/carry average. OUCH!

an Arizona team whose 2019 D stats absolutely stunk

Those are the 2019 facts...


Yup, the "hapless Cards" finished #32 in defense and #24 in rush defense. Those are "the facts". But a little context. Over the first 8 games of the year the "hapless" Cardinals gave up 1041 rushing yards on 222 attempts (130 yds/g & 4.7 ypc). Over the last 8 games of the year they gave up 881 yards on 217 carries (110 yds/g & 4.0 ypc). So they did improve one would conclude or is there some other variable you'd like to introduce? In fact, against the #2 rushing team, SF, who they played twice in the second half of the season, they allowed 135 yards on 50 carries (68 yds/g & 2.7 ypc). Now does the really sound like a "hapless" defense? But let's review....those numbers (SF's) were much worst than the Rams vs. Arizona and the niners won 1 game by 3 and scored 13 points in the final 37 seconds to win the second one. Much worse than the Rams vs the Cardinals. The Cardinals improved 2nd half numbers would have been good enough for #15 in rushing yards per game allowed and #7 in yards per carry, based on the NFL final numbers. But the bottom line is what the final numbers say, not actually how much better they were playing in the second half. :roll2:

As far as the Dallas game, aren't the utes allowed a mulligan in the last 5....games 3-7 that they played together on the season? But not because Dallas wasn't the bottom of the league in defense. They were the #9 defense overall and the #11 defense vs the rush. But that's not why we lost. The Rams came out flat and stayed flat all game.....in all phases....all game. BTW, it was in fact a must win for the Cowboys too....in Dallas.

But by all means, pound the table and shout out to the anyone who will listen. "Kromer is a loser" (despite the resume). "The young O lineman suck and they showed it" (because the Rams only gained 3.7 ypc and they didn't play like Saffold and Sullivan). So let's blow it up. Let's draft a couple of lineman....they always help in their rookie year even if they're not first round picks, don't they? Let's spend some money on some veteran talent (not Whitworth and Blythe) because there is no way in hell, those young guys can actually play in the NFL.

Just like Fowler and Higbee, who sucked....until they didn't. :idea2:

 by aeneas1
1 month ago
 Total posts:   12336  
 Joined:  Sep 13 2015
United States of America   Norcal
Hall of Fame

tevi, the bolts' third year right tackle, gets completely schooled by watt on this play, but tevi isn't charged with a qb pressure allowed given rivers successfully delivers a short, quick pass with plenty of time to spare... had this been evans protecting goff on a rams bread and butter slow developing deep crossing route, goff would have been drilled and evans would have looked like a chump, a big question mark, while goff would have been accused of holding onto the ball too long.

point is, scheme has so much to do with an oline's success or failure, perceived or real, and imo mcvay's scheme took a step back last season, the oline wasn't put in a position to succeed as often as it was during his first two years on the job.


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 by PARAM
1 month ago
 Total posts:   4598  
 Joined:  Jul 15 2015
Barbados   Just far enough North of Philadelphia
Superstar

aeneas1 wrote:tevi, the bolts' third year right tackle, gets completely schooled by watt on this play, but tevi isn't charged with a qb pressure allowed given rivers successfully delivers a short, quick pass with plenty of time to spare... had this been evans protecting goff on a rams bread and butter slow developing deep crossing route, goff would have been drilled and evans would have looked like a chump, a big question mark, while goff would have been accused of holding onto the ball too long.

point is, scheme has so much to do with an oline's success or failure, perceived or real, and imo mcvay's scheme took a step back last season, the oline wasn't put in a position to succeed as often as it was during his first two years on the job.


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And how come few fans who want a revamping of the O line don't point to Gurley? I'm not saying they were so solid and he should have had 1300 yards but that's not the point. They weren't solid, were in flux most of the season.....4 different lines in the first 10 games.....but no accountability is pointed Gurley's way.

The Bengals had 9 different starters...2 guys start 16, 1 start 13, another 9, another 8, 3 guys 5 each and another 2. Joe Mixon had 1137 yards on 278 carries (4.1). Giovanni Bernard 170 on 53 (3.2). I'm not calling Gurley, G. Bernard. I'm just saying sometimes running backs have to gain yards on their own. Gurley did very little of that in 2019. Mixon did and Bernard didn't.

I'm sure scheme had something to do with Gurley's poor performance too.

 by safer
1 month ago
 Total posts:   768  
 Joined:  Feb 03 2016
United States of America   LA Coliseum
Veteran

A HUGE problem last year was our not using Gurley's speed (I say we play him and let him earn his $$; it's NOT like Cooks who has suffered head injuries) and also not running nearly as many jet sweeps as we did in 17 & 18 which allowed D/E's to "pin their ears back". Later in the year we used Goff rolling out and our Oline stats improved considerably. I think that's a big factor in why our OT's played much less effectively in '19.
I'm not saying we can't improve upon our talent there---but McVay had his worst year in play calling and making D's fear protecting against outside runs.

 by CanuckRightWinger
1 month ago
 Total posts:   1262  
 Joined:  Jan 13 2016
Canada   VANCOUVER, BC
Pro Bowl

Sheesh PA....mention a few stinker 2019 Ram OL performances...and laborious research is undertaken! Which is a good thing, actually! 8-)

I re-read my post twice to find one obscure Kromer reference (I wrote "Kromer's charges").....so my post was hardly about the LawnChairCollector Ram Assistant Coach that I think is over-rated.

No, no....my post was to dismiss the ongoing notion that the Ram 2019 Yute OL "was playing much better late in the year". That's the rumour that I posted to deflate. :idea2:

I've posted earlier that McSnead will spend either Draft Treasure and/or FA buck$ to improve the Ram OL for 2020. That's my view. I cannot see McSnead going into Kroenke World Launch Year with a weak Rams OL, like they naively went into 2019 with (per Whit BTW). To me, "not learning from past mistakes" is a management death knell.....so I think new OL personnel will be added for 2020 by the wily survivors, Snead & McVay. :idea2: I mean....it's the smart move to address last year's problem area.....and I attempted to demonstrate the 2019 OL as a problem area, even going into Week 17 vs the 5-win weak Cards. :idea2:

The other 2019 Ram problem area was Wade's D of course.
Did you see what Sean IWillSurvive! McVay did there?? :o Regime change! :!2:

BTW, just curious....was Baltimore "an OL mulligan" too? :? The failed 2 rushes in SF#1 at home, from the 1 yard line....were they mulligans too? :?2:

BTW, mulligan is a Golf Term!....still and all, if you're gonna drift to other sports....cudda been worse, eh! Mighta brought up those damn NY Yankees again! :lol2:

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82 posts Mar 28 2020