[moklerman]

The part missing here though is in that the athletes who are celebrated achieved the greatness despite facing racial barriers. But they achieved the greatness. The overt discrimination of the black baseball/football player that went on is disgraceful. Separate leagues? Executives openly saying that black players weren't smart enough to play QB?
Yeah, there isn't a comparison to that plight.
I cant answer why there aren't more players, coaches and executives in the NFL past and present of latino descent. Just the same I cant answer why there aren't more Asians of the same.
I don't agree that what they accomplished is HOF worthy, a SB can cement HOF induction when the career is debatable, but surely isn't the be all end all. Flores winning % .527 is only slightly better than Dick Vermeil .524, who took 2 separate teams to the SB (Won 1 )and 3 teams to the playoffs, and he isn't in. Mike Holmgren? .592 win % 1 SB win and took 2 teams to the SB? Not in...
And Plunkett? Calling his regular season career mediocre is a compliment. 30 more INT than TD, no pro bowl or all pro seasons etc.

End of the day, would you be clamoring for either guy if they weren't latino?

No, I specifically said that's why their debatable statistics wouldn't be enough on their own. Neither of them have the career stats element to the HOF. But winning 2 SB's is significant and their ethnicity is significant.

Plunkett didn't have a stellar "career" and was a disappointment for the Patriots and the 49ers. But those teams were awful. That Plunkett persevered and still had enough left in the tank to lead two different SB runs well into his 30's is all part of the story.

I don't think any QB or HC that won 2+ championships should be excluded. Plenty of guys won it once but don't deserve it just because of that but if you win two? That's good enough to get in IMO. It's one thing to be Hostettler or Dilfer or Rypien or Flacco or whoever and catch lightning in a bottle and go on a run. But if you do it twice, it isn't a fluke.

[dieterbrock]

No, I specifically said that's why their debatable statistics wouldn't be enough on their own. Neither of them have the career stats element to the HOF. But winning 2 SB's is significant and their ethnicity is significant.

Plunkett didn't have a stellar "career" and was a disappointment for the Patriots and the 49ers. But those teams were awful. That Plunkett persevered and still had enough left in the tank to lead two different SB runs well into his 30's is all part of the story.

I don't think any QB or HC that won 2+ championships should be excluded. Plenty of guys won it once but don't deserve it just because of that but if you win two? That's good enough to get in IMO. It's one thing to be Hostettler or Dilfer or Rypien or Flacco or whoever and catch lightning in a bottle and go on a run. But if you do it twice, it isn't a fluke.

On the contrary, I think the Plunkett story, and his SB wins are the fluke.

[moklerman]

On the contrary, I think the Plunkett story, and his SB wins are the fluke.

It's an interesting conversation. One wouldn't consider Plunkett or Eli "better" than Fouts or Marino but for the former to have two rings apiece and the latter to have ZERO has to mean more than it does.

Sustained success over a long period of time is something but winning it all is more IMO. But, doing it once doesn't get you the ticket. Doing it twice, should. I don't care that Seifert or Flores couldn't win it all with other teams, winning it twice should have them in. Plunkett's career numbers weren't spectacular but winning the SB his first year as the starter for the Raiders and then backing it up with another one should get him in. Eli taking down the Patriots twice, same thing.

[dieterbrock]

It's an interesting conversation. One wouldn't consider Plunkett or Eli "better" than Fouts or Marino but for the former to have two rings apiece and the latter to have ZERO has to mean more than it does.

Sustained success over a long period of time is something but winning it all is more IMO. But, doing it once doesn't get you the ticket. Doing it twice, should. I don't care that Seifert or Flores couldn't win it all with other teams, winning it twice should have them in. Plunkett's career numbers weren't spectacular but winning the SB his first year as the starter for the Raiders and then backing it up with another one should get him in. Eli taking down the Patriots twice, same thing.

There’s no comparison between Eli and Plunkett. Eli did more than just collect 2 SB rings. He was the MVP in both SB wins and both times came from behind in the closing seconds/minute of the game to snatch victory from the team of the decade.
In any event, I loved watching Plunkett beat the Eagles. I can remember that Kenny King 80 yard TD like it was yesterday. If he and Flores got in, I surely wouldn’t complain. I’m only saying that I just don’t see where their exclusion is some how in bad faith, that they are deserving but being blacklisted. I don’t see that at all.

On a side note, if 2 wins means automatic entry for a qb or a coach, what about other players? How many SB did LC Greenwood have to win for the Steelers? He has 4 rings, no HOF. Matt Millen and Bill Romanowski have 4 rings, no HOF. Larry Brown has 3 rings and a SB MVP no HOF.

[moklerman]

There’s no comparison between Eli and Plunkett. Eli did more than just collect 2 SB rings. He was the MVP in both SB wins and both times came from behind in the closing seconds/minute of the game to snatch victory from the team of the decade.
In any event, I loved watching Plunkett beat the Eagles. I can remember that Kenny King 80 yard TD like it was yesterday. If he and Flores got in, I surely wouldn’t complain. I’m only saying that I just don’t see where their exclusion is some how in bad faith, that they are deserving but being blacklisted. I don’t see that at all.

On a side note, if 2 wins means automatic entry for a qb or a coach, what about other players? How many SB did LC Greenwood have to win for the Steelers? He has 4 rings, no HOF. Matt Millen and Bill Romanowski have 4 rings, no HOF. Larry Brown has 3 rings and a SB MVP no HOF.

I can't say for sure about other positions but LB's and DE's don't warrant the same level of consideration as QB's and HC's IMO.

And I don't think it's a conspiracy that they are out but it is a shame.

[aeneas1]

nor did olinemen for the longest time, something the hof has tried to fix.... re eli? can't see how he doesn't get in, but he will certainly never come to (my) mind when chewing the fat with others about the greatest nfl qbs that have ever played the game, sb success notwithstanding.

[St. Loser Fan]

[R4L]

To me it's a no brainier. Hands down yes. Just beating NE and stopping their undefeated season is enough for me.

[Hacksaw]

Who?

[aeneas1]

agreed, altho i have to believe larger classes is beneficial to the folks at the pro football hall of fame.