[Elvis]

[moklerman]

https://nflspinzone.com/2020/01/25/raid ... nub-crime/
Las Vegas Raiders: Tom Flores missing Hall of Fame again is a crime
by Brandon Thornton3 hours ago Follow @Thor_andPeace

With the senior members of the expanded 2020 class for the Pro Football Hall of Fame already announced, a Raiders legend is once again snubbed.

There’s been a long-running conspiracy theory that there is an anti-Raiders bias when it comes to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. This theory is largely the brainchild of former owner Al Davis, attributing it to his own feud with former NFL commissioner Pete Rozelle.

This theory doesn’t just concern the Hall of Fame but also numerous calls Davis felt cost the Raiders playoff wins, most notably the Immaculate Reception. It also has to do with the franchise’s movement from Oakland to Los Angeles, back to Oakland and now to Las Vegas, which has sometimes drawn ire from the league.

While the entirety of the conspiracy isn’t of concern, it’s hard to argue with as the Hall of Fame is concerned. It took Ken Stabler, Ray Guy and Tim Brown forever to get inducted. And one can look at numerous former members of the silver and black that have consistently been snubbed from Canton.

Lester Hayes, Cliff Branch, Jack Tatum, George Atkinson, Daryle Lamonica, Phil Villapiano and Todd Christensen are just a handful to wet the whistle. Former quarterback Jim Plunkett is a two-time Super Bowl-winning quarterback and MVP of Super Bowl XV. He’s also still waiting to hear his name called. There is one Raiders snub that reigns supreme, however.

Tom Flores was the Raiders head coach for the franchise’s second and third Super Bowl championships during the 1980 and 1983 seasons. Flores is one of only two men in the 100-year history of the NFL to win a Super Bowl as a player, assistant coach and head coach, the other being Hall of Famer Mike Ditka.

Flores is also one of only two head coaches with multiple Super Bowl wins not to be enshrined in Canton, the other being George Seifert.

In the case of Seifert, his championship in 1989 with the San Francisco 49ers was the year after Bill Walsh faded into the sunset after winning the Lombardi Trophy. Seifert then took practically the same team the following year to a championship. He’s not Barry Switzer because Seifert did win another in 1994. His exclusion is more explicable though, especially when his 1-15 season in 2001 with the Carolina Panthers is taken into account.

In the case of Flores, while he did take over for John Madden in 1979 three years after Madden’s Super Bowl title in 1976, the roster was very different. Flores’ 1980 squad featured only eight starters from the 1976 club while the 1983 roster had only four — and one was the punter.

So it wasn’t like Flores was along for the ride. The 1983 team also beat the defending champion Washington Redskins, the highest-scoring offense in NFL history at the time, 38-9, in Super Bowl XVIII.

While Flores did have a not so spectacular tenure with the Seattle Seahawks, going 2-14 followed by two 6-10 seasons, it’s not like all coaches are perfect. Jimmy Johnson, who is getting inducted this year, had a 1-15 season, and Andy Reid, who everyone is already inducting if he can guide the Kansas City Chiefs to a title this year, has gone 4-12 in his career.

Certainly, Flores’ down years can’t be ignored. However, of the 13 head coaches to win multiple Super Bowls, Flores’ .727 win percentage ranks second. So despite those three down years with Seattle, Flores is still ahead of the great Bill Belichick (.721) and only behind Vince Lombardi’s outrageous .900.

Flores has a higher winning percentage than Johnson and more Super Bowl rings than Bill Cowher. Both former coaches are getting induced this season. So what gives with Flores? Some attribute it to the anti-Raiders bias, while some go even deeper and look at his heritage, going so far as to conclude the NFL must stand for “Not For Latinos”.

[BobCarl]

Tom Flores missing Hall of Fame again is a crime

.... snubbed from Canton. Lester Hayes, Cliff Branch, Jack Tatum, George Atkinson, Daryle Lamonica, Phil Villapiano and Todd Christensen,,, Jim Plunkett is a two-time Super Bowl-winning quarterback and MVP of Super Bowl XV.

Flores is one of only two men in the 100-year history of the NFL to win a Super Bowl as a player, assistant coach and head coach, the other being Hall of Famer Mike Ditka.

Flores is also one of only two head coaches with multiple Super Bowl wins not to be enshrined in Canton ....

Flores’ .727 win percentage ranks second. So despite those three down years with Seattle, Flores is still ahead of the great Bill Belichick (.721) and only behind Vince Lombardi’s outrageous .900.

Yes it is a moral travesty of the sports writing HOF electors to leave both Flores and Plunket out of the HOF. It not is on the part of the NFL, it is on the specific Sports Writers that have the voting power ... and then their industry cries because fewer and fewer people are supporting their media outlets.

When there is no valid explanation, how can the "race" card not be played?

Todd Christenson? Ok, I loved the guy but I get it, one of the forerunners of how TEs are used today, but no he isn't the same league as Tony Gonzalez or Antonio Gates. Nor was Christenson in the same league as his predecessor (HOF member) Dave Casper. I can't cry any tears about Christenson not being voted in.

Phil Villapiano? Nah, doesn't really belong in as a player. He IS a Raider legend and a NFL notable ... but not a NFL legend. His interviews and commentary about past and current Raiders are incredibly entertaining, one of the best ever... but his stuff is 100% Raiders ... if he could show the same excitement and sarcasm and reverence for non Raider players, he'd be the highest paid and eternally running Monday Night commentator. As a biased fan, I must admit that the NFL is 90% Raiders and 31 other teams ... but we can't leave out those 31 teams. (see his comments about Tatum in the video below) No, Villa-piano doesn't belong in the HOF.

Daryle Lamonica? His bottom line stats from playing in the run-first era may not warrant him getting in the HOF, especially in comparison to the modern day GSOT style football. But in the minds of those born into the NFL culture of "yesterday, today and tomorrow", Lamonica as a legend supersedes the majority of the NFL QB's in the HOF.

Cliff Branch? Same as Lamonica above ... so what if he doesn't have Jerry Rice stats ... Branch's impact of just being on the field, in the game, and confounding opposing Defenses was every bit as concerning as any WR that ever lived. BULLSHIT that he isn't in.

Lester Hayes and George Atkinson? I think they both deserve it ... so do many non-biased Raider fans. Ok, I'll accept that they are not voted in ... but it is one of those things that make me say "Hmmmmm"

Jack Tatum? My favorite NFL player of all time. Ok, I am 100% biased. Because of my bias, I'll acquiesce and accept it. I don't understand, but yes I'm biased. I'll defer to the Sports Writers having an unbiased perspective. Darryl Stingley you say? That is a crock of stigmatism. Writers using Stingley as an excuse are pussies afraid of having to answer to the ignorance of public opinion. Tatum with one play, single-handedly won Super Bowl XI. When I saw it on TV, I actually thought Sammy White's head came off. Before that play, the Vikings had the upper hand and momentum. After that play the Vikings gave up and laid down for the rest of the game. I have never seen a game change so dramatically on one play. I think he deserves to be in the HOF for that play alone. But, I admit I'm biased when it comes to Tatum. I humbly accept that he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.

[dieterbrock]

Tom Flores record as an NFL head coach is 97-87, a .527 winning %
And Plunkett? Right after the SB He got benched for Mark Wilson because he got shut out 3 games in a row. Sure, he’s a heart warming story about perseverance, but for the most part was a mediocre regular season player.
I surely can understand why a Raider fan would want these guys in, but from an unbiased POV, I can surely see why they aren’t. And it’s got nothing to do with ethnicity. You know @BobCarl i think you hung the moon, but i just can’t see how your not seeing this thru Raider colored glasses

[moklerman]

Tom Flores record as an NFL head coach is 97-87, a .527 winning %
And Plunkett? Right after the SB He got benched for Mark Wilson because he got shut out 3 games in a row. Sure, he’s a heart warming story about perseverance, but for the most part was a mediocre regular season player.
I surely can understand why a Raider fan would want these guys in, but from an unbiased POV, I can surely see why they aren’t. And it’s got nothing to do with ethnicity. You know @BobCarl i think you hung the moon, but i just can’t see how your not seeing this thru Raider colored glasses

Shouldn't it sometimes be about more than just the numbers, though? There's no argument that Plunkett didn't have big numbers but his story is unique and memorable. One can't say his name without any NFL fan knowing his name. Isn't that "fame"?

[dieterbrock]

Shouldn't it sometimes be about more than just the numbers, though? There's no argument that Plunkett didn't have big numbers but his story is unique and memorable. One can't say his name without any NFL fan knowing his name. Isn't that "fame"?

Does he deserve recognition? I think he gets plenty of it. But Hall of Fame? I just look at Hall of Fame being the best of the best, careers that just stand out among all others. From a performance perspective I just don't see the argument, not even close. And I believe if sentimental, memorable players/coaches get in, that is a whole new level of gray area.
End of the day, I can see why there would be a west coast bias that would be in favor of these two, but in no way can I see where their absence is so egregious, that it is surely due to race

[moklerman]

Does he deserve recognition? I think he gets plenty of it. But Hall of Fame? I just look at Hall of Fame being the best of the best, careers that just stand out among all others. From a performance perspective I just don't see the argument, not even close. And I believe if sentimental, memorable players/coaches get in, that is a whole new level of gray area.
End of the day, I can see why there would be a west coast bias that would be in favor of these two, but in no way can I see where their absence is so egregious, that it is surely due to race

Okay, but I'm not saying they're not in because of their race. I am saying part of why they should be in is because of their race, though.

[dieterbrock]

Okay, but I'm not saying they're not in because of their race. I am saying part of why they should be in is because of their race, though.

Well, I don't think race should ever be a factor in to why somebody gets in, or doesn't get in.
There shouldn't be a sliding scale, that's borderline reverse prejudice

[moklerman]

Well, I don't think race should ever be a factor in to why somebody gets in, or doesn't get in.
There shouldn't be a sliding scale, that's borderline reverse prejudice

I agree...in a vacuum. But the reality is, guys who break through the barriers deserve their notoriety. Especially back then when it was a lot tougher than it is now. It's hard enough to make it to the professional level but to add racial issues on top of it?

Granted, Latinos haven't necessarily had it as tough as blacks in that regard but that doesn't mean they haven't faced some long odds along the way. Even now, there isn't much of a Latino presence in the NFL. Flores' and Plunkett's stories are important because of that. What they accomplished, regardless of ethnicity, was arguably HOF worthy. But their ethnicity puts them over the top and worthy to get in.

[dieterbrock]

I agree...in a vacuum. But the reality is, guys who break through the barriers deserve their notoriety. Especially back then when it was a lot tougher than it is now. It's hard enough to make it to the professional level but to add racial issues on top of it?

Granted, Latinos haven't necessarily had it as tough as blacks in that regard but that doesn't mean they haven't faced some long odds along the way. Even now, there isn't much of a Latino presence in the NFL. Flores' and Plunkett's stories are important because of that. What they accomplished, regardless of ethnicity, was arguably HOF worthy. But their ethnicity puts them over the top and worthy to get in.

The part missing here though is in that the athletes who are celebrated achieved the greatness despite facing racial barriers. But they achieved the greatness. The overt discrimination of the black baseball/football player that went on is disgraceful. Separate leagues? Executives openly saying that black players weren't smart enough to play QB?
Yeah, there isn't a comparison to that plight.
I cant answer why there aren't more players, coaches and executives in the NFL past and present of latino descent. Just the same I cant answer why there aren't more Asians of the same.
I don't agree that what they accomplished is HOF worthy, a SB can cement HOF induction when the career is debatable, but surely isn't the be all end all. Flores winning % .527 is only slightly better than Dick Vermeil .524, who took 2 separate teams to the SB (Won 1 )and 3 teams to the playoffs, and he isn't in. Mike Holmgren? .592 win % 1 SB win and took 2 teams to the SB? Not in...
And Plunkett? Calling his regular season career mediocre is a compliment. 30 more INT than TD, no pro bowl or all pro seasons etc.

End of the day, would you be clamoring for either guy if they weren't latino?