[snackdaddy]

Lol, when I pitched in high school we had two signals for me. One finger for fast ball. Two for an even faster ball.

They never had to tell me to bean someone. It just seemed to happen naturally.

[dieterbrock]

Goat

[PARAM]

I wouldn't doubt LaRussa given the 'roid history of his players in Oakland and St. Louis.

The only issue I have with McDowell's claim is the cameras, lenses and standard def TV resolution back in the 1980's. Could you really pick up hand signals with back then?

Sure you could. I can remember thinking back in the day, why would they show that angle (although it's the best angle for viewers) because it would be so easy to relay the signals. Of course back then I figured MLB would make sure those bases were covered. They certainly don't have to be HD cameras to pick up the catchers signals. I have an old 35 MM Minolta with a 400 mm lens (so long there's a tripod mount on the lens) and a 2X teleconverter. I could easily see the catchers signals from the centerfield stands, probably without the 2X tc. And though I loved using that camera and lens for sports, it's nowhere near as strong as a vintage 1980 TV camera zoom.

[rams74]

Goat

In Game 7 of the 1965 World Series, Sandy Koufax, pitching on two days rest, could not command his curveball. From the 1st inning on, every hitter on the Twins knew that every pitch Koufax threw would be a fastball. It didn't matter. Koufax threw a complete-game, 3-hit shutout.

But cheating is cheating.

[snackdaddy]

A lot of Astros fans are trying to water it down. Saying things like "We still woulda won it anyway" to "Everyone's doing it. They just want to make an example of us".

Altuve and Bregman denied using an electronic device on their body. They never denied the other stuff. They just said things like the trash can banging was more distracting than anything else. That's a bullshit cop out. I'm hitting and I know the sound of that trash can is going to rule out a fastball, and the lack of that sound tells me there's a fastball coming, trust me that would not be distracting. I'd be licking my chops knowing what is coming and what is not. When these hitters can sit on a certain speed or pitch it really gives them an advantage.

[rams74]

A lot of Astros fans are trying to water it down. Saying things like "We still woulda won it anyway" to "Everyone's doing it. They just want to make an example of us".

Altuve and Bregman denied using an electronic device on their body. They never denied the other stuff. They just said things like the trash can banging was more distracting than anything else. That's a bullshit cop out. I'm hitting and I know the sound of that trash can is going to rule out a fastball, and the lack of that sound tells me there's a fastball coming, trust me that would not be distracting. I'd be licking my chops knowing what is coming and what is not. When these hitters can sit on a certain speed or pitch it really gives them an advantage.

I agree completely. In all probability, the Astros would have hit Darvish anyway. And if Darvish had been that good, it wouldn't have mattered that they knew what pitch was coming.

But all that's immaterial. They broke the rules to gain an unfair advantage. Their title is tainted, and should be vacated.

[aeneas1]

many moons ago hbo did a special on steroids in mlb, a wide range of folks participated...

- jim leyland was asked if there should be an asterisk next to barry bonds' numbers going forward given it was clear he cheated, a perturbed leyland looked at the host like he had rocks in his head and said "bonds, from the moment he joined the league, is a generational talent, if you don't get that you don't get baseball... there shouldn't be asterisks."

- bob gibson was asked the same thing (btw, how cool is bob gibson?), he pretty much ignored the question, and instead said "asterisks? every batting record from 1969 on should have an asterisk, and i have should have more records, baseball lowered the mound because of my dominance, and gave batters an unfair advantage."

- a host of others pointed to the rampant use of amphetamines in the 70s and 80s in mlb, and said if you want to put an asterisk next numbers put up by bonds, mcguire, sosa, etc. you would also have to do it for an army of other players.

- there were, of course, guests who blasted the steroid users, the cheaters, iirc schilling was the most vocal.

anyway, i remember being surprised that the guests didn't present a strong, united front against steroid cheaters, in fact some seemed quite annoyed that it was even being discussed, while others took what seemed to be a "whatever" position.

hey, speaking of cheating, wouldn't it be topical if the media revisited the niners cheating ways of yesteryear?

- when they circumvented the salary cap and were docked a couple of draft picks along with policy and clark receiving heavy fines.

- when they were caught for tampering after trying to corral lb briggs from the bears, which also cost them a couple of draft picks.

so what what have the mooks from the sf bay area been up to lately? hmmm...

[Gareth]

- jim leyland was asked if there should be an asterisk next to barry bonds' numbers going forward given it was clear he cheated, a perturbed leyland looked at the host like he had rocks in his head and said "bonds, from the moment he joined the league, is a generational talent, if you don't get that you don't get baseball... there shouldn't be asterisks."

Bonds may have been great before the steroids but does that change the cheating? Of course not. I’ve always thought that argument was lame. Anyone recall him approaching 73 homers before steroids?

Obviously the boost helps plenty. Why else would these guys risk their careers and reputations?

[PARAM]

many moons ago hbo did a special on steroids in mlb, a wide range of folks participated...

- jim leyland was asked if there should be an asterisk next to barry bonds' numbers going forward given it was clear he cheated, a perturbed leyland looked at the host like he had rocks in his head and said "bonds, from the moment he joined the league, is a generational talent, if you don't get that you don't get baseball... there shouldn't be asterisks."

- bob gibson was asked the same thing (btw, how cool is bob gibson?), he pretty much ignored the question, and instead said "asterisks? every batting record from 1969 on should have an asterisk, and i have should have more records, baseball lowered the mound because of my dominance, and gave batters an unfair advantage."

- a host of others pointed to the rampant use of amphetamines in the 70s and 80s in mlb, and said if you want to put an asterisk next numbers put up by bonds, mcguire, sosa, etc. you would also have to do it for an army of other players.

- there were, of course, guests who blasted the steroid users, the cheaters, iirc schilling was the most vocal.

anyway, i remember being surprised that the guests didn't present a strong, united front against steroid cheaters, in fact some seemed quite annoyed that it was even being discussed, while others took what seemed to be a "whatever" position.

hey, speaking of cheating, wouldn't it be topical if the media revisited the niners cheating ways of yesteryear?

- when they circumvented the salary cap and were docked a couple of draft picks along with policy and clark receiving heavy fines.

- when they were caught for tampering after trying to corral lb briggs from the bears, which also cost them a couple of draft picks.

so what what have the mooks from the sf bay area been up to lately? hmmm...

I respect the shit out of Bob Gibson (I tend to think Luis Severino resembles him to some degree....in form only) but he doesn't mention that after the 1961 season, when Maris and Mantle hit 115 home runs between them, MLB expanded the strike zone. Of course, after 1968 not only did they lower the mound but reduced the size of the strike zone too.

As far as greenies vs steroids, IMHO, apples and oranges. Uppers give you a temporary boost. Anabolic steroids change your body completely. Forget the asterisks. I doubt anybody needs one to know those numbers are tainted. I listened to a discussion on Sirrius MLB Channel this afternoon.

They were talking with sportswriter Bill Maddon. He says he's talked to a lot of the HOF vets and to a man, they don't want Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens or other in the hall, though publicly they aren't as adamant. He claims most of them say IF any of those guys get in they'll stop coming to Cooperstown, as well as many writers have said they'd stop voting. l agree with them.

The crime with Bonds is he didn't need steroids to be a HOF player but he wanted the records and adulation McGwire and Sosa received during their run. Bonds and Clemens have 2 years left on the ballot and Maddon said their numbers are not increasing enough to expect election. And due to the tone of the veterans committee, they're not going to over ride the lack of interest in seeing them in.

But we'll see.

[St. Loser Fan]

I respect the shit out of Bob Gibson (I tend to think Luis Severino resembles him to some degree....in form only) but he doesn't mention that after the 1961 season, when Maris and Mantle hit 115 home runs between them, MLB expanded the strike zone. Of course, after 1968 not only did they lower the mound but reduced the size of the strike zone too.

"(Hank Aaron told me) 'Don't dig in against Bob Gibson, he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast. If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer.' I'm like, 'Damn, what about my 17-game hitting streak?' That was the night it ended."
-Dusty Baker

I could have met Bob Gibson at a charity function one time. I refused as I was too scared.