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 by moklerman
4 weeks ago
 Total posts:   5392  
 Joined:  Apr 17 2015
United States of America   Bakersfield, CA
Hall of Fame

/zn/ wrote:"Goff's" struggles were always and are still OL struggles. It is no accident that the worst games offensively came against top front 7s--including among others Chicago, SF, and Pittsburgh. Can you name more than 2 qbs who play well behind overmatched and/or injured OLs? I can think of only 2--Brady and Wilson. And with both of THEM it could only go on for so long and they got had in some games.

I reject the idea that this all gets down to the qb. Any effort to push that idea just bounces off my cold indifference to it.

Rams fans, more than most teams fans, should already know this. We saw a completely unprecedented streak of massively injured and therefore bad OLs, going back years---it actually encompasses most of the seasons from 2007 through 2015. (In fact it was all but 2010, the 2nd half of 2012, and all but a few of the final games in 2013.)

But for some reason some folks just keep thinking it's all on the qb.


That argument doesn't work when you consider his struggles last year when the line wasn't massively injured. I really don't think that Goff is working under some unique set of circumstances. Granted, the line hasn't been stellar at all times but Goff has been sacked at one of the lowest rates in the league. You make it sound as if Goff is facing a challenge that other QB's don't have to and that just isn't the case. Most QB's face pressure all the time as their regular working environment. It's part of the job.

What Goff did have the last couple of years was a uniquely beneficial advantage with his line being perfectly healthy most of the time. What he has now is "normal". It does not bode well for Goff if he requires what the Rams o-line provided in '17/'18.

 by bremillard
4 weeks ago
 Total posts:   39  
 Joined:  Sep 30 2019
United States of America   LA Coliseum
Undrafted Free Agent

Every team has injury issues. Do you think the Rams are special in that regard? How was the OL during the Super Bowl? As was accurately stated...every NFL QB can throw a pass with a clean pocket and a wide open receiver. 130 million dollar quarterbacks should be able to get it done under duress. Watch Brady or Brees throw a pass. Then watch Goff. See the difference in mechanics and arm motion? Goff's technique allows for arm interference and balls knocked out of his hand. His feet are slow. His reads are slow. I couldn't believe the contract the Rams gave him and now nobody can. But congrats to Goff. He got his and the Rams got fucked.

 by rather
4 weeks ago
 Total posts:   325  
 Joined:  Oct 04 2016
United States of America   LA Coliseum
Starter

/zn/ wrote:But for some reason some folks just keep thinking it's all on the qb.


I know this is a pointless ask but can we lose the straw-man arguments. No one is saying "it's all on Goff." I think M is making very lucid points about why we should be concerned about Goff and whether it was wise to pay up sooner vs later.

And I will also agree that any QB in the NFL can look competent to Pro Bowl caliber when given STP-perfect conditions, including but not limited to: Coaching, play-calling, surrounding talent, surrounding leadership, team/locker room culture ..

We are seeing Goff's play deteriorate rapidly, much more rapidly than it ought to, when you start getting away from ideal conditions. He is basically Expensive Mark Sanchez right now.

 by /zn/
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   4664  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Superstar

rather wrote:I know this is a pointless ask but can we lose the straw-man arguments. No one is saying "it's all on Goff." I think M is making very lucid points about why we should be concerned about Goff and whether it was wise to pay up sooner vs later.

And I will also agree that any QB in the NFL can look competent to Pro Bowl caliber when given STP-perfect conditions, including but not limited to: Coaching, play-calling, surrounding talent, surrounding leadership, team/locker room culture ..

We are seeing Goff's play deteriorate rapidly, much more rapidly than it ought to, when you start getting away from ideal conditions. He is basically Expensive Mark Sanchez right now.


I don't agree. I think all we are finding out about Goff this year is that like virtually every other qb, he does not function as well behind an out of sync and/or injury wrecked OL.

It is a very rare qb who plays well under those conditions. And even the ones I can think of who have (Brady, Wilson) still had games where even they couldn't pull it off.

To me, if anyone draws conclusions about Goff without accounting for the fact that (again with rare exceptions) ALL qbs crumble under those conditions, then, they aren't being even remotely realistic.

So they may not be SAYING they put it all on Goff, but...intentionally or not, that's what they ARE doing. Again--exceptions to this are just hard to find---all qbs regress when the OL is THAT MUCH of a mess, especially going against a top front 7, and failing to account for that to the full extent . (and not just paying it lip service) is, IMO, bad analysis.

If it were common or ordinary for most qbs to play well under those conditions I might agree but it ain't and I don't.

Oh and speaking of strawmen, it has nothing to do with playing under "perfect conditions." It's just not playing under "really really bad" . conditions. Do you think playing in N.O. in the championship game was "perfect conditions"?

...

 by aeneas1
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   11559  
 Joined:  Sep 13 2015
United States of America   Norcal
Hall of Fame

bremillard wrote:Every team has injury issues. Do you think the Rams are special in that regard? How was the OL during the Super Bowl? As was accurately stated...every NFL QB can throw a pass with a clean pocket and a wide open receiver. 130 million dollar quarterbacks should be able to get it done under duress. Watch Brady or Brees throw a pass. Then watch Goff. See the difference in mechanics and arm motion? Goff's technique allows for arm interference and balls knocked out of his hand. His feet are slow. His reads are slow. I couldn't believe the contract the Rams gave him and now nobody can. But congrats to Goff. He got his and the Rams got fucked.

ask brees and brady to complete deep crossing routes on a regular basis with pressure in their grills, don't give them the underneath pass to backs that's been a staple of their offensive schemes, and then let's have this conversation... and, as if on cue, garoppolo just now completes a big gainer on a quick slant against an 8-man front, gee what a concept.

 by rather
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   325  
 Joined:  Oct 04 2016
United States of America   LA Coliseum
Starter

Of course you are right Aeneas.. I think we’d agree that as conditions deteriorate so too will the QB’s play. It’s the rapidity of that deterioration that is concerning about Goff.

The best example is how he is always trying to vomit out a forward pass when it is too late instead of eating the ball. Half the time it is fumble, half the time he barely gets it away (and half the time he gets it away and the refs/NFL says “f$&@ you we’re not bailing you out”). A better coached or more intuitive QB would have learned by now when to just eat the ball. That is just one example

 by bremillard
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   39  
 Joined:  Sep 30 2019
United States of America   LA Coliseum
Undrafted Free Agent

"It is a very rare qb who plays well under those conditions. And even the ones I can think of who have (Brady, Wilson) still had games where even they couldn't pull it off. "

It's a rare qb that can demand and get paid 140 million with 110 million guaranteed. Nobody in the NFL gets paid like that. Not Wilson, not Brady not Brees, not Mahomes, not anyone. Goff isn't terrible but he's FAR from elite and even further from being worth his salary. My biggest issue when watching him lose games is he's still getting 2 million bucks per pop. If I were he I would be embarrassed cashing that check. His bang-for-the-buck index is off scale low and he's laughing all the way to the bank. If you don't think the other players aren't discussing this then you've never been in a locker room.

 by /zn/
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   4664  
 Joined:  Jun 28 2015
United States of America   Maine
Superstar

bremillard wrote:"It is a very rare qb who plays well under those conditions. And even the ones I can think of who have (Brady, Wilson) still had games where even they couldn't pull it off. "

It's a rare qb that can demand and get paid 140 million with 110 million guaranteed. Nobody in the NFL gets paid like that. Not Wilson, not Brady not Brees, not Mahomes, not anyone. Goff isn't terrible but he's FAR from elite and even further from being worth his salary. My biggest issue when watching him lose games is he's still getting 2 million bucks per pop. If I were he I would be embarrassed cashing that check. His bang-for-the-buck index is off scale low and he's laughing all the way to the bank. If you don't think the other players aren't discussing this then you've never been in a locker room.


No that's not rare. That's a standard issue starting qb's 2nd contract for the year he signed. In fact he would not have even "demanded" that--the usual case with starting qb 2nd contracts is that everyone, agent and team, know the rough price involved, which goes up annually.

And you're missing the point. Trying to judge a qb who is playing behind a messed up and injury depleted OL means you're not looking at qb talent, you';re looking at what is the normal and typical play you get from qbs when their OLs collapse. Pretending that it's all just the qb won't work--it's the qb behind a broken OL, and the vast majority of the time their play suffers under those conditions. As does the playcalling since the playcaller has to compensate for the OL issues.

As I said there are rare exceptions to that, but even the exceptions (Brady, Wilson) still have some bad games under those circumstances.

 by bremillard
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   39  
 Joined:  Sep 30 2019
United States of America   LA Coliseum
Undrafted Free Agent

/zn/ wrote:No that's not rare. That's a standard issue starting qb's 2nd contract for the year he signed. In fact he would not have even "demanded" that--the usual case with starting qb 2nd contracts is that everyone, agent and team, know the rough price involved, which goes up annually.

And you're missing the point. Trying to judge a qb who is playing behind a messed up and injury depleted OL means you're not looking at qb talent, you';re looking at what is the normal and typical play you get from qbs when their OLs collapse. Pretending that it's all just the qb won't work--it's the qb behind a broken OL, and the vast majority of the time their play suffers under those conditions. As does the playcalling since the playcaller has to compensate for the OL issues.

As I said there are rare exceptions to that, but even the exceptions (Brady, Wilson) still have some bad games under those circumstances.


The problems with the team are not all Jared Goff. I acknowledge this but he isn't stepping up. While they might not all be his he's paid to be the face and soul of the team and he just isn't delivering. I am not in their locker room so I have no idea if he's loved, hated, tolerated or what but I do know that if the team doesn't LOVE their QB issues will always follow.
As for his contract is standard for the NFL...that's not correct. His contract pays him the highest guaranteed salary in the NFL. Is he really the best player? Before I gave him that farm I would have traded him and started over. Maybe get a couple of draft picks and some salary room for great offensive linemen. The Rams are headed backwards. Mark my words. I will happily eat them if I am wrong but I doubt I will have to.

 by dieterbrock
3 weeks ago
 Total posts:   10939  
 Joined:  Mar 31 2015
United States of America   New Jersey
Hall of Fame

bremillard wrote:If you don't think the other players aren't discussing this then you've never been in a locker room.

So, you've been in an NFL locker room? I think its safe to safe that most of us have not

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470 posts Dec 09 2019